Curse

Div · Jan 24, 2008, 07:55 AM // 07:55

A pretty nice additional read on energy efficiency I found:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Regarding Energy Efficiency:

- A well placed Prot Spirit can prevent loads of damage, oftentimes much than what you'd get from a Heal Other.
- A Spirit Bond can heal for upto 840 HP, or 420 HP if it triggers just 5 times.
- A Shield of Absorption can negate 100s of points of damage for just 5e.
- Let's say a mostly physical mob of 6 hits your team a total of 30 times in 11 seconds for an average of 40 damage. That's a total of 1200 points of damage. A 11s Aegis would have prevented 600 points of damage for a measly 10e.

If you use your prots wisely, they are far more energy efficient than healing.
Sure, a Dkiss can be extremely energy efficient and can heal for oodles on a heavily enchanted/hexed target, but they're a staple on most hybrid bars.

2 hybrid bars allow for 2 copies of Aegis that can prevent a ton of damage for relatively little energy.
2 hybrid bars allow the monks to take the best skills regardless of the attribute line they belong to.
2 hyrbrid bars allow you to take the best elites for PvE which happen to be healing related, like HBoon, WoH, and LoD (with Mindbender, imo).
2 hybrid bars prevent one monk from being overtaxed against certain types of damage. The pure prot monk will have to work overtime against a spike mob and the pure heal monk will have to work overtime against a pressure/degen mob.
2 hybrid bars allow the monks to save one another better.
2 hybrid bars work much better in HM than pure heal/prot bars.

When exactly is a pure heal/prot setup better?

The small gain in power by going 14 Heal/Prot, 13 DF is not worth the loss of having multiple copies of key skills such as Aegis and Dkiss, as well as access to an elite like WoH, HBoon, or LoD. When you run pure prot/heal monks, you are paying a much huger cost by gimping your bars.

The extra healing gained by the pure heal monk going 14 Heal, 13 DF does not come close to matching the efficiency of having a second copy of Aegis. The pure prot monk running 14 Prot, 13 DF is far less efficient that a hybrid one that has access to Dkiss and WoH.

PvE players have been doing the pure prot/heal thing forever. And frankly, they're the ones who've been blindly sticking to it. It's a relic from the early days of having a tank, a bonder, and a healer for farming groups.

It's a horrible setup in PvE. The most efficient pve monk setup (going by the skills of the average pve pug monk at protting) is for both to go hybrid with HBoon and WoH as elites. Take 2 copies of Aegis. Take 1 copy of prot spirit, mend condition, Shield of Absorption, Dkiss, Heal Party, GoLE, and fill the rest of the bar with heals, sig of rejuvenation, and maybe a hex removal.

Div · Mar 05, 2008, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Added some more stuff to the introduction, and improved some other aspects.

Limu Tolkki · Mar 23, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Hey, i know this is basically a monk thread but whatever, im asking a few questions about weapon sets. First about playing as ele, is there any reason to use shield + martial weapon in pvp? As much as i've played pvp no one attacks on ele tbh. So i'd just stay on normal 40/40 sets and high energy set. Then about playing as ele in pve, i dont see yet any reason to use shield, 40/40 still wins.

Then we come to monking. In pvp shield is needed ofc but how about pve? In pvp i have always shields +10 armor x dmg for every sort of dmg. In pve its harder tho, theres more different dmg sorts and i cant see any reason carrying so many shields with me, neither that i would pay for so many shields. So, should i use shield in pve? Monks are not usually attacked, tho 40/40 doesnt help monk a lot anyway. And which mod should i use in the shield if i use one. +10 againts slashing?

I D E L E T E D I · Mar 23, 2008, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Probably the best shield for PvE in general is +10 vs Fire for most places. Then of course you should change to +10vsCold if you play in the shiverpeaks

Next you should always be in your defensive set whenever your not casting. Especially with Teleport spikes being sort of meta when i last played HA, it could hit you anytime. In PvE its not soo important but its always good practice to weapon swap no matter when. Although i sometimes just cba to do it in PvE for the most parts i do.

Lastly a 40/40 set on monk is awesome, i love WoH when i cast it as fast as infuse

chef_koo · Mar 24, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Word hybrid:
Required:
[skill]shield of absorption[/skill][skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]word of healing[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill]
Choose one:
[skill]protective spirit[/skill] or [skill]spirit bond[/skill]
Optionals:
[skill]cure hex[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]heal party[/skill][skill]seed of life[/skill][skill]"I am unstoppable"[/skill][skill]aegis[/skill]
10+2 healing, 10+1 divine, 11+1 prot (if aegis)
11+2 healing, 10+1 divine, 10+1 prot (if other)

Explanation: Probably the best build IMO. With word on a 40/40 set, you’re not going to need many other heals. RoF is your spot heal against big damage, cure hex is a good heal with hex removal, SoA is for a target getting hit a lot, PS/SB is for big monsters that hit for huge numbers. GoLE keeps your energy going in the middle of a battle, and to power Heal Party/Aegis. Dismiss can be switched out if you want, but it can be useful as a decent heal and condition removal. Seed of life is a crazy party heal prot.
Modifications: Another direct heal (like [skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill] or [skill]patient spirit[/skill]) in regions where there are a lot of touchies (slavers, stygian veil)

Healers boon pure healer:
Required:
[skill]healer's boon[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]heal party[/skill]

Optionals:
[skill]holy haste[/skill][skill]ethereal light[/skill][skill]signet of rejuvenation[/skill][skill]cure hex[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]shield of absorption[/skill][skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill]
12+2 healing, 12+1 divine (if pure heal)
12+2 healing, 10+1 divine, 8+1 prot (if hybrid HB)

Explanation: This isn’t nearly as useful as the word hybrid, simply because of the lack of prots. You’ll be useless when party bars are near full, but be spamming spells to bring up life bars after it takes damage. No mitigation is the key weakness. However, it provides VERY strong party and single target healing, as well as nice energy management.

LoD hybrid:
Required:
[skill]light of deliverance[/skill][skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]shield of absorption[/skill]
Choose one:
[skill]protective spirit[/skill] or [skill]spirit bond[/skill]
Optional:

[skill]cure hex[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]seed of life[/skill][skill]"I am unstoppable"[/skill][skill]aegis[/skill]
Dwaynas kiss, RoF, LoD, Cure hex, Dismiss condition, Prot spirit, GoLE, Open
12+2 healing, 10+1 divine, 8+1 prot

Explanation: After the LoD nerf, this bar became a lot weaker. However, it is still very good at helping your party stay alive. With proper protting, you shouldn’t be taking massive damage that LoD can’t mop up. The recharge can be nasty, isn’t nearly as bad in PvE with a 40/40 set. I’d go with the word hybrid, but this is still feasible.

my friend gave me his copy of guildwars. i'm having trouble understanding some of the numbers used and i'm guessing it's because i don't have an instruction manual. i saw the abbrevs at the start so 'm ok with that. but where is says 40/40, or 12+2 healing, what do they mean? i'm assuming that tings like aegis and protective spirit are spells you get later in the game so i'll worry about that when iget there. thanks in advance

I D E L E T E D I · Mar 25, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Every game has certain abbreviations, here is a nice summary for the onces in guild wars

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Category:Abbreviations

Age · Dec 10, 2008, 08:27 AM // 08:27

I thought I would post this guide as well so they can copy and paste in their word editors as this is big one.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guide...ying_as_a_monk

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Monk

Rev222 · Jan 09, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm one of those new players (to monks at least) who know less than nothing. :-)

Any suggestions on secondary professions? I saw a few mentioned, but not too many, and only in passing. I'm starting in prophecies.

Napalm Flame · Jan 09, 2009, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev222

Sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm one of those new players (to monks at least) who know less than nothing. :-)

Any suggestions on secondary professions? I saw a few mentioned, but not too many, and only in passing. I'm starting in prophecies.

/R for nat stride is an option for bar compression, giving block and kite in one. /W is more defensive, with 75% block and sprint. /E gives you emanage from GoLE. /Me gives you a whole bunch of mantras to use, as well as arcane mimicry for stealing UA when you're on a healboon healpartyspam. /D is used in farming builds as you can maintain mystic regen. /A gives some more defense with possibilities for return, dark escape and dash. /N is good for smite monks as you have enchantment removal, more frequent than /Me removal.

Age · Jan 09, 2009, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev222

Sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm one of those new players (to monks at least) who know less than nothing. :-)

Any suggestions on secondary professions? I saw a few mentioned, but not too many, and only in passing. I'm starting in prophecies.

Check my link in there are the secondaries for Proph go /E,/Mes is your best bet for starting Monks.I went /W for being adventurouse.

bob_gray · Jan 22, 2010, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Love the guide. I was wondering how a skill like [skill]Great Dwarf Armor[/skill] stacks up compared to a skill like SoA. Since it gives +24 armor, +60 maximum Health it seems that it would work as a cheap protection skill.

When I checked the armor multipliers when you are at 60 AL you take 1.0 damage. If you go up to 60+24=84 then you are at 0.66 damage. Does that mean that if someone hits you for 40 pts then you take 40 with 60 AL and 26 with 84 AL? While it may not work for armor ignoring damage like SoA it lasts quite a long time (22 - 40 sec) and you reduce a significant portion of incoming damage by 1/3. (at least if I understand how armor works) Also fast recharge and only costs 5e

Thoughts, comments, opinions?

the_jos · Jan 22, 2010, 12:52 PM // 12:52

bob_gray,

The +A and +HP is nice, I used GDA in some builds for a while for testing.
But it's not a skill that replaced any regular skill on my bar for long time.
So it's ok, but not good enough to stay.

GDA should not be compared to SoA. SoA is great when you get a large number of damage packets in small time. Like in 'tanking' or a caster being targeted by several opponents by accident. When taking less damage over longer time it loses value fast.
GDA would more be of a long-term damage soaker. Put it on and forget for 20+ seconds. However there should not be many players who receive much damage at once (except with bad aggro control). So keeping it up on every player is not energy efficient. And only keeping it on the one or two players who receive damage isn't worth the skillslot which could be filled with more potent monk skills.

I can see it fit in a team build though, but most likely on a support role and not on the monks.

bob_gray · Jan 22, 2010, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Thanks for the reply The Jos. After reading what you said I decided I should run some numbers and actually see what it was myself. I was looking at an example used by JoeKnowMo:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Let's say a mostly physical mob of 6 hits your team a total of 30 times in 11 seconds for an average of 40 damage. That's a total of 1200 points of damage

Lets say that half of those hits happened in the first 6 seconds, the length of SoA, then the approximate total damage reduction from one SoA is 460. [15 hits with the reduction of damage increasing by 5 with each hit (with a maximum of about 40 because that is the size of the damage packet)] But GDA would have only reduced the damage by 1200/3 = 400. (don't know if we should put the +60 health in there or not)

Now suppose that there were only 20 hits in those 11 seconds. Then we could apply half of them in the time of SoA and get damage reduction of 260. With GDA the damage reduction is 800/3 = 266. (Again, not sure where to count the +60 health). Both of these scenarios are purely physical damage and not armor ignoring damage.

I'm not sure what to think at this point. After the 3rd damage packet your SoA is up to 15 and that is about the reduction from GDA for a 40 point hit. Perhaps the GDA works better for fewer large hits? Then there is the energy consideration. OK, now my head is starting to hurt.

Anyway, thanks for the input.

MaaKotka · Jan 22, 2010, 11:46 PM // 23:46

GDA looks nice on paper, but it isn't very good skill to use. If you want to add armor to your team there is much better choises like "Save Yourselves!", Ebon Battle Standard of Courage and "Stand Your Ground!".

the_jos · Jan 25, 2010, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob_gray

Thanks for the reply The Jos. After reading what you said I decided I should run some numbers and actually see what it was myself. ..... OK, now my head is starting to hurt.

Numbers is theorycraft.
Just look at practical use on a skillbar where you have to replace one other skill with another.
So not only look at the benefit for one skill, but also the disadvantage you get from not having the other skill.

Now what does GDA do? It gives some extra health and an armor bonus for a relatively long time.
However, when do you expect someone to take damage for such a long time?
Frontline would take this kind of damage. However, frontline should already have some other forms of damage mitigation in place.
When midline or backline gets hit there are two choices. Either they move out as fast as possible or they get prots and keep aggro on them while others kill the attacking foes.
In both situations a long +armor prot is not optimal. In the first situation you might need to use a small fastcasting skill to save life, in the second you need a skill that allows them to soak a lot of damage. GDA isn't doing either.
Further disadvantage is that you gain no benefit from a 40/40 set because GDA isn't linked.

Then there is another thing.
Having GDA on a monk bar does not give any benefit from having it on another player bar. If an ele with same title casts it it would have the same effect. Since it's long-lasting it only requires a short moment of selecting team member, putting GDA on and switching back on target. And it's easy to apply pre-battle. How much benefit would the team have from that additional armor and how much damage/utility is lost by replacing a skill with GDA?

As you see it's not easy to answer those questions.
I'd say try for yourself. Create a monk bar with no PvE skills and play it a lot. Tweak it till you think it's the best you can make. Then replace the 'weakest' skill with GDA and see how well the bar works with it. Improvement? Keep GDA. Doesn't work? Replace other skill and see how that works.

bob_gray · Jan 28, 2010, 06:54 AM // 06:54

the_jos,

Wow! Thanks again. That was a great post. I'm going to have to re-evaluate how I have been monking.

Fu8ar · Nov 19, 2011, 06:24 AM // 06:24

I understand this is an old generic build, but it works pretty good. I've only been running my first monk for about a week and have just about completed EoTN with heroes. I've run a couple of zaishen quests, vanq, and bounty's in EoTN and have had good results in hard mode too. Looking forward to getting more skills to increase my monks viability. I've only run into one prick in game while joining a group that didn't like the build (reminded me of my old d2lod days.)

Again, thank you for this informative post.

Edit: People are so dependent on the UA build.... I don't like a fall back build that is centered around res.